Been there, seen it, done that. A good phrase to describe the rock-n-roll adventures of Irishwoman Victoria Clarke, long-time partner of singer Shane McGowan. Vic has survived Pogues tours, drugs, Shane’s crazed fans, and many mad experiences of her own. Years of close contact with music legends have given her an insider’s perspective on fame and celebrity and her astute observations about the music business have found their way into magazines, books, films and tv documentaries. While Vic likes the perks of the rock lifestyle, she can also roll with the punches: Courtney Love once threatened her with death if she published a not-fully-flattering biography of Nirvana. I first met Victoria at a spoken word gig. Soon after, I went to her for angel channeling. She’s a fantastic writer and channeler, a witty woman, an adventurous spirit and a true friend. She’s also an internationally syndicated music journalist, so it was fun turning the tables on her. What, in your mind, makes a cool girl? Somebody who makes me laugh, cooks for me, buys me nice presents, introduces me to cute guys regularly, maybe is really good at massage or reiki. What else? Preferably has a really nice house with a pool somewhere sunny I can come and stay! Are you sure you’re not describing a secret lesbian sugar momma fantasy? Sugar momma, yeah, that’s it! Jennifer Saunders is a cool girl. I don’t know if she’s got all those other things, but she makes me laugh. Dawn French—same reason. I like Patti Smith very much because of the way she can wear really hideous clothes, but still look really cool. She just seems completely uninterested in what she looks like, which I really admire, cos I’m so obsessed with what I look like. Sinead O’Connor is really cool because of the way she can express herself: not just because she’s got a beautiful voice but because she can really express feelings and has tremendous courage. I always admire the courage to be different and get up on a stage and really expose yourself. I like Kate Moss a lot cos she’s a really funny person and she’s very unpretentious and without guile. She’s like a kid that’s dressing up in her mum’s clothes, which is so different from what other models are like. She always seems like somebody who’s really having fun with that whole fashion thing, which I don’t think many of them are. She’s the only one I’ve ever met who just seems to be having fun and not taking it seriously and not being egotistical and not trying to be superior to other girls. The fact that she’s thin, I don’t think she would ever consider that to make her superior to anyone else, which is odd because most people compare themselves to someone like her and think they’re inferior because they’re not as thin. But, yeah, she’s probably the least egotistical and most unpretentious. Who are some of your favorite rock n roll women, and why? Again, Patti Smith, for pure energy and passionate self-expression. Chrissie Hynde, cos she’s a real rocker and she’s like a man, really, I suppose she’s got balls, but at the same time she’s also very soft. She’s got the combination right. She’s somebody you’d aspire to be like. Janis Joplin, because of her amazing, amazing voice and her amazing capacity to communicate. Joni Mitchell because of her clever lyrics and clever tunes. Courtney Love, as well, because of her shamelessness [laughs]. Sinead is my favorite girl singer because she makes me cry, I suppose, and she’s probably the only one who does. What do you look for in a gig? Energy, passion, and, I suppose, integrity. Honesty. And great tunes, great songs. Some of the best-ever gigs I’ve been to include Nirvana: every single one of their gigs, as many as I went to, they were all really good. Otherwise, Jerry Lee Lewis, Ray Charles and Shane. Basically, Shane and Kurt Cobain are the two best performers I’ve ever seen. It’s their complete and utter honesty and abandon, combined with genius songwriting. Ok, the lure and allure of the male rock star. Is he usually radiating health and confidence or pain and bravado? For me, it’s neither of those things. No, it’s mystery, a kind of wickedness …mischief, I’d say, mischief and glamour. It’s not really confidence as much as charisma. You’ve had songs recorded about you, which, for a lot of women, would be a dream come true. What are the pros and cons of writing a song yourself, as opposed to having one written about you? Well, there isn’t really any comparison, is there? I suppose if somebody else writes a song about you, it’s flattering. But then, not necessarily, cos Nick Cave wrote a song about me called ‘Little Empty Boat’ which is deeply unflattering and Shane wrote some quite nasty songs about me, like ‘That Woman’s Got Me Drinking,’ and he wrote another one about me and Van Morrison, which was quite nasty. I don’t think he’s actually recorded that one yet. I think if I was writing songs I’d probably be quite tempted to use them as a means of revenge on people, cos if you can write clever lyrics you can get revenge on people! [laughs] Have you ever put any effort into pursuing a musical career? Mmm … Well, I’ve had guitar lessons from Donovan and from Shane and they were both good teachers. I’ve written one really good song. It doesn’t have music yet, but it’s got good words. It’s called ‘The Entry of Christ into Jerusalem’. I’ve taken some singing lessons, and I sang onstage with Shane at the Forum. I sang ‘Fairytale of New York’ and that was one of the most exciting experiences of my life. I had to drink quite a lot to get myself onto the stage, but it was very exciting. It was really exciting, you can’t describe it. It’s impossible to describe. Cos the audiences at Pogues or Popes gigs are usually 99% male, young males, so when you stand on the stage all you see is young guys clapping you! [laughs] It must be like being a stripper, only better, do you know what I mean? Really fun! Do you want to perform more? Yeah, by the time I’m 40 I aim to be a rock star … among other things! Can you think of anyone who has started late? No, but who cares! I could be the first …to start at 40. I’ll wait til 40 to start! What are three of your favourite rock-n-roll memories? Dancing with Bruce Springsteen, drinking brandy with Jerry Lee Lewis, and dancing onstage with Van Morrison while Bob Dylan was singing. Cool! Keeping it real, what have you learned from your female friends? Hmm. The value of communicating with other people just your day-to-day stuff, just the stuff that happens and how you feel about it. Friendship, I guess. What would you say to encourage women starting out in the music business? Well, it is intensely male-dominated, that’s definitely true. And they are sexist, that’s without a doubt. They really are. And so, I think it’s important not to buy into the stuff about having to please them sexually by being pretty and stuff like that. I think it’s far more important to find the passion in it, the excitement for yourself, not because of how much you’ll impress guys or what you’ll look like, although that’s obviously a part of it. But find the thing in music that will sustain you even if you’re alone for the rest of the life and you never see another human being. Get in touch with the creativity of it, the adventure, the channeling aspect of it, where you really don’t know what you’re going to do. The experimenting. Get into that part of it and then you won’t be disappointed, because you’ll always have it. You can treasure it, it’ll always be there with you. Because if you get into it completely because you want to show off and make loads of money, then you could easily be disappointed. I think it’s really important to get into it for the right reasons. I’m not saying you can’t have both, but I think the people I know who are really, really good, and who have longevity, they’re people who really are not that bothered about the fame at all. They really find their deepest joy and passion from the music itself. So they’re not that bothered about whether they play Wembley Stadium or whether they play a pub, and I think that’s what really stands out for me about my favorite performers. What mistakes have you seen being made by women starting out in the music business? I suppose, trying to be too cunning, trying to be too calculating, basically, and trying to fit themselves into what they think the music business or the public wants, rather than being themselves. Thinking they’ve got to look a certain way, dress a certain way, be a certain age, or sing a certain type of song in order to succeed. As you can see from people like Patti Smith or Sinead or even Courtney, you really don’t have to do that. I think audiences can always tell when you’re trying to fool them and sometimes they buy it, because they know you’re doing it and you know you’re doing it and it’s all agreed upon, but that tends to happen more in the world of pop bands, all-girl bands or boy bands. It’s all very cleverly done and we know it is and nobody’s pretending it isn’t a marketing man’s fantasy. It’s not necessarily a bad idea if that’s what you want to do, if you want to be that kind of an act. Like the Spice Girls—it was well-thought-out, it was a marketing thing, it was obviously cynical. That’s ok if that’s what you want to be; I just think there’s probably less room for real genuine connection with your audience and real genuine self-expression, which is more what I’d be interested in, for me personally. When you read about female singers feuding with each other, what do you think about that? I think they’re stupid! I think they’re absolutely childish and there’s absolutely nothing to be gained from it at all. Do you think that there’s not that many women out there doing it, so they should support each other? I think everybody should be encouraging each other, not just women, but men and women. Because even if you’re not encouraging somebody to become enormously famous and successful at it, I think if you can encourage somebody just to do it, it will be beneficial to them always, just to express themselves through music. I think it’s really important to encourage people to sing and play regardless of how good they are. Just get everyone to do it, because it’s a very precious thing! So it’s just all bollocks if you’re going to be competitive and put other people down. I think, just do the opposite. Get more people playing and singing. Get everyone doing it. --avra eclectic grrrl "A Drink With Shane MacGowan" by Shane MacGowan and Victoria Mary Clarke is now available at amazon.co.uk